From aaccomazzi at cfa.harvard.edu Thu Oct 6 08:11:37 2011 From: aaccomazzi at cfa.harvard.edu (Alberto Accomazzi) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 11:11:37 -0400 Subject: Program for Pune session Message-ID: <4E8DC529.8030002@cfa.harvard.edu> Dear DC&P enthusiasts, I'm soliciting input for our session at the Pune meeting. The list has been quite silent but I know of a few items that should be of interest to this group and that I would like to at least bring to the table: * Data citations: this is a topic of current interest across all of science and astronomy is no exception. We have a tradition of being good about archiving and naming our resources but we haven't solved all problems and we'll need to face the fact that the rest of the world will be using things such as DOIs and ARKs. I think a review of where things are is in order, although this discussion could easily fill the entire meeting. * Workflows: Andr? Schaaff and Jose Enrique Ruiz suggested writing a Note about the (planned) use of workflows in science in general and astronomy in particular. Andre' are you interested/willing in talking about this? * VAO AstroExplorer project: I would like to give people an update of what our group has been doing within the VAO DC&P efforts, and possibly hear from other people involved in discovery portals/applications how this effort can benefit them. There may be some overlap with the applications or Semantics groups so this might be moved. Please let me know if you're interested in any of the above and if you're willing to contribute with one or more (short) presentations as part of this discussion. Are there any other topics that we should cover? Sorry for sending this out so late. -- Alberto -- Dr. Alberto Accomazzi aaccomazzi(at)cfa harvard edu Program Manager NASA Astrophysics Data System ads.harvard.edu Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics www.cfa.harvard.edu 60 Garden St, MS 83, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA From andre.schaaff at astro.unistra.fr Thu Oct 6 23:44:57 2011 From: andre.schaaff at astro.unistra.fr (Andre Schaaff) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 08:44:57 +0200 Subject: Program for Pune session In-Reply-To: <4E8DC529.8030002@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <4E8DC529.8030002@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <4E8E9FE9.4050100@astro.unistra.fr> Hi Alberto, On 06/10/11 17:11, Alberto Accomazzi wrote: > Dear DC&P enthusiasts, > > > * Workflows: Andr? Schaaff and Jose Enrique Ruiz suggested writing a > Note about the (planned) use of workflows in science in general and > astronomy in particular. Andre' are you interested/willing in talking > about this? > Jose and me will attend both the meeting i think that we can speak about the preservation side of the workflows in DCP and about more technical details in GWS regards Andr? From pierre.lesidaner at obspm.fr Mon Oct 10 07:05:00 2011 From: pierre.lesidaner at obspm.fr (Pierre Le Sidaner) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:05:00 +0200 Subject: Program for Pune session In-Reply-To: <4E8DC529.8030002@cfa.harvard.edu> References: <4E8DC529.8030002@cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <4E92FB8C.5010001@obspm.fr> Le 06/10/2011 17:11, Alberto Accomazzi a ?crit : > Dear DC&P enthusiasts, > > I'm soliciting input for our session at the Pune meeting. The list > has been quite silent but I know of a few items that should be of > interest to this group and that I would like to at least bring to the > table: > > * Data citations: this is a topic of current interest across all of > science and astronomy is no exception. We have a tradition of being > good about archiving and naming our resources but we haven't solved > all problems and we'll need to face the fact that the rest of the > world will be using things such as DOIs and ARKs. I think a review of > where things are is in order, although this discussion could easily > fill the entire meeting. > > * Workflows: Andr? Schaaff and Jose Enrique Ruiz suggested writing a > Note about the (planned) use of workflows in science in general and > astronomy in particular. Andre' are you interested/willing in talking > about this? > > * VAO AstroExplorer project: I would like to give people an update of > what our group has been doing within the VAO DC&P efforts, and > possibly hear from other people involved in discovery > portals/applications how this effort can benefit them. There may be > some overlap with the applications or Semantics groups so this might > be moved. > > Please let me know if you're interested in any of the above and if > you're willing to contribute with one or more (short) presentations as > part of this discussion. Are there any other topics that we should > cover? > > Sorry for sending this out so late. > > -- Alberto > > Hi Alberto I am not sure I will be able to attempt DC&P because I will need to be present at TAP RegExtention. It seem to me that one of the important input of IVOA in DC&P is the data model that describe now precisely the data, the facility and with extension the resource. The next step will be provenance to describe what OAIS call Context Information. You should evolve Data Model group in this process If I can escape from DAL I would be glad to explain a bit more this point Regards Pierre -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre Le Sidaner Observatoire de Paris Division Informatique de l'Observatoire Observatoire Virtuel 01 40 51 20 89 61, avenue de l'Observatoire 75014 Paris mailto:pierre.lesidaner at obspm.fr http://vo-web.obspm.fr -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jer at iaa.es Tue Oct 11 00:43:11 2011 From: jer at iaa.es (Jose Enrique Ruiz) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:43:11 +0200 Subject: Program for Pune session In-Reply-To: <4E93ED76.50902@astro.unistra.fr> References: <4E8DC529.8030002@cfa.harvard.edu> <4E93ED76.50902@astro.unistra.fr> Message-ID: Hello Alberto as you say there has been some interest around workflows in the last weeks, Andr? and myself are trying to gather the state of the art for a Note. So, I will be very happy to participate in the DCP session with a short talk about workflow preservation in the context of the Wf4Ever project. Regards --- Jose Enrique Ruiz Instituto Astrofisica Andalucia - CSIC Glorieta de la Astronomia s/n 18008 Granada, Spain > > Dear DC&P enthusiasts, > > I'm soliciting input for our session at the Pune meeting. The list has > been quite silent but I know of a few items that should be of interest > to this group and that I would like to at least bring to the table: > > * Data citations: this is a topic of current interest across all of > science and astronomy is no exception. We have a tradition of being > good about archiving and naming our resources but we haven't solved all > problems and we'll need to face the fact that the rest of the world will > be using things such as DOIs and ARKs. I think a review of where things > are is in order, although this discussion could easily fill the entire > meeting. > > * Workflows: Andr? Schaaff and Jose Enrique Ruiz suggested writing a > Note about the (planned) use of workflows in science in general and > astronomy in particular. Andre' are you interested/willing in talking > about this? > > * VAO AstroExplorer project: I would like to give people an update of > what our group has been doing within the VAO DC&P efforts, and possibly > hear from other people involved in discovery portals/applications how > this effort can benefit them. There may be some overlap with the > applications or Semantics groups so this might be moved. > > Please let me know if you're interested in any of the above and if > you're willing to contribute with one or more (short) presentations as > part of this discussion. Are there any other topics that we should cover? > > Sorry for sending this out so late. > > -- Alberto > > > -- > Dr. Alberto Accomazzi aaccomazzi(at)cfa harvard edu > Program Manager > NASA Astrophysics Data System ads.harvard.edu > Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics www.cfa.harvard.edu > 60 Garden St, MS 83, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aaccomazzi at cfa.harvard.edu Wed Oct 12 13:54:02 2011 From: aaccomazzi at cfa.harvard.edu (Alberto Accomazzi) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:54:02 -0400 Subject: DC&P program at Interop Message-ID: <4E95FE6A.5060604@cfa.harvard.edu> I have posted a tentative agenda for the DC&P session: http://www.ivoa.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/InterOpOct2011DCP Please let me know if I missed anything or. I have purposefully left plenty of time for discussion at the end of the session, but if the speakers need more time please let me know. Thanks, -- Alberto -- Dr. Alberto Accomazzi aaccomazzi(at)cfa harvard edu Program Manager NASA Astrophysics Data System ads.harvard.edu Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics www.cfa.harvard.edu 60 Garden St, MS 83, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA From genova at newb6.u-strasbg.fr Sat Oct 15 10:06:06 2011 From: genova at newb6.u-strasbg.fr (Francoise Genova) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:06:06 +0200 (MEST) Subject: towards a DataLink IVOA Note Message-ID: <201110151706.p9FH66f16264@cluster.u-strasbg.fr> (for the readers who are on the datacp list and not on the dal list: the strating point for this discussion is on the dal list) Hi Norman, I tend to think that having sustainable solutions for data citation is a critical requirement (ie, the funding model and its sustainability is not a detail). I remember very well at the beginning of the web, when CDS/ADS/NED and the journals decided to use the bibcode/refcode to network bibliographic services: at that time it was not at all evident to see who was going to win the battle which was finally won by the DOI for which concerns bibliographic reference citations. I'll post the talk I have prepared for the DataCP meeting. It contains two links to recent meetings/actions which tend to show that the debate on solutions for which concerns citations of data (or even on a compilation of best practices in that domain) is not over: http://sites.nationalacademies.org/PGA/brdi/PGA_063656 and http://www.codata.org/taskgroups/TGdatacitation/index.html I would be interested to know if there is detailed information somewhere about the scalability of the DataCite solution. People I know from other disciplines who push for it want to declare 'campaign' data sets, and not each observation of a large observatory which is operated for many years. Cheers Francoise From aaccomazzi at cfa.harvard.edu Sat Oct 15 11:03:38 2011 From: aaccomazzi at cfa.harvard.edu (Alberto Accomazzi) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:03:38 -0400 Subject: towards a DataLink IVOA Note In-Reply-To: <201110151706.p9FH66f16264@cluster.u-strasbg.fr> References: <201110151706.p9FH66f16264@cluster.u-strasbg.fr> Message-ID: <4E99CAFA.2070508@cfa.harvard.edu> Hi Francoise, Thank you for bringing the discussion to DC&P. Just a couple of additional thoughts on this: 1. All the projects which make use of DataCite that I know of are quite happy with a "macro" approach, which involves assigning a single DOI to all the data products published in a paper/study. I will show an examples of this in my talk. This does not mean that we can't go any finer, but it's just something to be aware of when the question of scaling comes up. 2. The issue of what should be a citeable nugget and how it should be expressed in a document is yet a separate problem, as is the technical issue of how the resource should be de-referenced and what safeguards exist behind the infrastructure that supports this de-referencing. Unfortunately it's hard to talk about one issue without bringing into the discussion the other(s), which often only makes taking decisions more difficult. Francoise, is 10 minutes enough for your DC&P presentation? Originally I thought you would just say something about the WDS, but maybe there's more you want to say. Please let me know so I can arrange the schedule accordingly. Thanks, -- Alberto Francoise Genova wrote, On 10/15/11 1:06 PM: > (for the readers who are on the datacp list and not on the > dal list: the strating point for this discussion is > on the dal list) > > Hi Norman, > > I tend to think that having sustainable solutions > for data citation is a critical requirement > (ie, the funding model and its sustainability is > not a detail). I remember very well at the > beginning of the web, when CDS/ADS/NED and > the journals decided to use the bibcode/refcode > to network bibliographic services: > at that time it was not at all evident to see > who was going to win the battle which was finally > won by the DOI for which concerns bibliographic > reference citations. > > I'll post the talk I have prepared > for the DataCP meeting. > It contains two links to recent meetings/actions > which tend to show that the debate on solutions for > which concerns citations of data (or even on a > compilation of best practices in that domain) is not over: > > http://sites.nationalacademies.org/PGA/brdi/PGA_063656 > > and > > http://www.codata.org/taskgroups/TGdatacitation/index.html > > I would be interested to know if there is detailed information > somewhere about the scalability of the DataCite solution. > People I know from other disciplines who push for it > want to declare 'campaign' data sets, and not each observation > of a large observatory which is operated for many years. > > Cheers > > Francoise -- Dr. Alberto Accomazzi aaccomazzi(at)cfa harvard edu Program Manager NASA Astrophysics Data System ads.harvard.edu Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics www.cfa.harvard.edu 60 Garden St, MS 83, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA From norman at astro.gla.ac.uk Mon Oct 17 03:42:30 2011 From: norman at astro.gla.ac.uk (Norman Gray) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:42:30 +0100 Subject: towards a DataLink IVOA Note In-Reply-To: <201110151706.p9FH66f16264@cluster.u-strasbg.fr> References: <201110151706.p9FH66f16264@cluster.u-strasbg.fr> Message-ID: <7DD51514-243E-41E1-B088-0718EF806A35@astro.gla.ac.uk> Fran?oise, hello. On 2011 Oct 15, at 18:06, Francoise Genova wrote: > I tend to think that having sustainable solutions > for data citation is a critical requirement > (ie, the funding model and its sustainability is > not a detail). I remember very well at the > beginning of the web, when CDS/ADS/NED and > the journals decided to use the bibcode/refcode > to network bibliographic services: > at that time it was not at all evident to see > who was going to win the battle which was finally > won by the DOI for which concerns bibliographic > reference citations. Ah, I didn't mean to suggest that the funding model was just a detail, just that the people involved seem comfortable that the remaining problems are not technical ones (of course the non-technical problems can be the hardest ones). I was this morning in touch with some of the UK DataCite people, and they said: > Scalability of the level you suggest [I'd said: what about 10^8 DOI/yr?] has not been tested but we see no reason why our service cannot provide for this. Essentially we're happy to do this but suggest that some planning and staging is required. They're talking about a flat subscription, around GBP 1000 + GBP500/year. ---- But I say all this with some diffidence. I don't really have standing here -- I'm not an archive, and I'm more likely to be a consumer of the IVOA's citation solution than a provider for it. However, as a result of projects over the last couple of years I've ended up talking to library people, and people involved in whole-academy digital preservation (as of course will you and others in the DC&P group), and I have the uncomfortable perception that the rest of the academy seems to be pressing ahead with plausible solutions while astronomy -- which would be a natural leader, given its experience -- seems disconnected from this activity. Of course, this is at base due to a lack of FTEs, and perhaps due to a lack of obvious community urgency. So this is me being Community, calling out from the floor! > I'll post the talk I have prepared > for the DataCP meeting. > It contains two links to recent meetings/actions > which tend to show that the debate on solutions for > which concerns citations of data (or even on a > compilation of best practices in that domain) is not over: This is very reassuring, from my point of view. > I would be interested to know if there is detailed information > somewhere about the scalability of the DataCite solution. > People I know from other disciplines who push for it > want to declare 'campaign' data sets, and not each observation > of a large observatory which is operated for many years. I hope the comments above are relevant to this. My impression is that the DataCite people haven't dedicated resources to experimenting with large-scale performance, because there hadn't been a community banging on their door demanding it. It sounds as if we're on the edge of a substantial step forwards. But we seem to have been on this threshold for quite a long time, now. Best wishes, Norman -- Norman Gray : http://nxg.me.uk SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK