From skoda at sunstel.asu.cas.cz Thu Jun 2 18:08:24 2011 From: skoda at sunstel.asu.cas.cz (Petr Skoda) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 03:08:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ObsCore corrections Message-ID: Hi all, I have just uploaded the number of identified typos and unclear issues on the wiki. Unfortunately I am not able to participate in telecon in the remaining time slots. So hope my comments on wiki are clear ... Regards, Petr ************************************************************************* * Petr Skoda Phone : +420-323-649201, ext. 361 * * Stellar Department +420-323-620361 * * Astronomical Institute AS CR Fax : +420-323-620250 * * 251 65 Ondrejov e-mail: skoda at sunstel.asu.cas.cz * * Czech Republic * ************************************************************************* From mireille.louys at unistra.fr Fri Jun 3 07:16:24 2011 From: mireille.louys at unistra.fr (Mireille Louys) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 16:16:24 +0200 Subject: Telecon on ObsCore DM and Proposed recommendation document Message-ID: <4DE8ECB8.7000703@unistra.fr> Hello: After compiling your ansers , at http://doodle.com/xfmqvabv7qbkr2xi it seems next Monday , June 6, is the most suitable date. Let us start at 18:00 european time , which is in Victoria 9:00 a:m for instance . Please check the time for your time zone . I apoloqize for people not available on this day. Minutes will be circulated. The expected duration should not be more than one hour. Please call one of the following numbers and enter the participant's code. * If you are in North America: 1-604-899-2339 * If you are outside North America: 1-403-232-0994 * The participant's code is: 9641176# Best wishes , Mireille -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Mireille LOUYS mailto: mireille.louys at unistra.fr L S I I T& CDS, Ecole Nationale Superieure Observatoire de Strasbourg de Physique de Strasbourg, 11, Rue de l'Universite Boulevard S?bastien Brant, BP 10413 67000 STRASBOURG 67412 ILLKIRCH Cedex Tel: +33 3 68 85 24 34 --------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mireille.louys at unistra.fr Fri Jun 3 07:24:28 2011 From: mireille.louys at unistra.fr (Mireille Louys) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 16:24:28 +0200 Subject: preliminary agenda for Obscore telco : Monday 6 Message-ID: <4DE8EE9C.3060505@unistra.fr> We plan to go through the last comments written on the RFC page. Typos already identified are currently being corrected. Main points to discuss: collection_name and connections with telescope, instrument names pol_states mandatory or not document formating section 5 : registering an Obstap service any other document issue Feel free to suggest some extra topic i may had forgotten. Thanks , Mireille -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Mireille LOUYS mailto: mireille.louys at unistra.fr L S I I T & CDS, Ecole Nationale Superieure Observatoire de Strasbourg de Physique de Strasbourg, 11, Rue de l'Universite Boulevard S?bastien Brant, BP 10413 67000 STRASBOURG 67412 ILLKIRCH Cedex Tel: +33 3 68 85 24 34 --------------------------------------------------------------- From mireille.louys at unistra.fr Tue Jun 7 06:47:17 2011 From: mireille.louys at unistra.fr (Mireille Louys) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 15:47:17 +0200 Subject: [ObsCoreRFC]Minutes of the telco Monday June 6 Message-ID: <20110607154717.vzvq3m2tc488ks0s@webmail.u-strasbg.fr> Dear all , I uploaded the minutes of the teleconference on the revision of the ObsCore DM proposed recommendation. Please look at the bottom of the RFC page : http://www.ivoa.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/ObsCoreRFC Thanks , Mireille From mdittmar at cfa.harvard.edu Thu Jun 9 08:34:33 2011 From: mdittmar at cfa.harvard.edu (Mark Cresitello-Dittmar) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:34:33 -0400 Subject: Spectrum DM v1.1/1.2 Message-ID: <4DF0E809.70500@cfa.harvard.edu> All, I have submitted our comments on the Spectrum DM 1.1 to the IVOA Twiki: http://www.ivoa.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/IVOADMSpectrum12 At least I think so.. it's my first attempt. Mark From arots at head.cfa.harvard.edu Thu Jun 9 12:55:50 2011 From: arots at head.cfa.harvard.edu (Arnold Rots) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 15:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ObsCoreRFC]Minutes of the telco Monday June 6 In-Reply-To: <20110607154717.vzvq3m2tc488ks0s@webmail.u-strasbg.fr> Message-ID: <201106091956.p59Ju32S024292@xebec.cfa.harvard.edu> Mireille, I am sorry I could not attend - I was in a meeting that took much longer than expected. I am still left with a few questions, though they may be minor and perhaps not even controversial. 1. I puzzled over the comment on whether polarization information should be mandatory. The logic applied seems to lead to the assumption that all datasets that do not provide a particular optional item will return an error as soon as that item is in the query. I would have assumed that the behavior SHOULD be: - if a particular item in the SELECT clause is not available from a service, that service SHALL return a NULL value. - if a particular item in the WHERE clause is not available from a service, that service SHALL return an empty list of results. Under that assumption, there should not be any problem in making polarization optional. 2. bib_reference I stumbled over this and it looks like I probably misinterpreted it. It is meant to be a documentation reference for the service/collection/repository, right? However, if that is the case, the description in B.4.3 is misleading: "This is a forward link to publications which reference the dataset." That indicates that it would be for a specific dataset in the collection (e.g., a scientific paper on that observation), which is quite a different beast. 3. dataproduct_type, dataproduct_subtype, access_format I still think the scheme that is proposed is incomplete since it is ill-suited (as currently defined) to accommodate datasets (i.e., collections of files). I would like to suggest that it would be good to add a dataproduct_type "package" (or some such thing) that indicates that the client will be receiving not just a single file. However, the client will still want to know what is in the package, so maybe the subtype should contain a list of the science file data types? In access format we are running into a somewhat similar problem: it's nice (and necessary) to know that a tar file is coming, but it is equally important to know what kinds of formats are hidden inside that tar file: if it is, say, Cobol code, I am not interested. Should it be a comma separated list? Or something like "tar(fits,pdf,txt)"? 4. access_estsize: compressed or expanded? 5. access_url Should this be a direct download URL or would a "landing place" suffice? That is especially relevant for packages, where one might have a choice of package compositions. - Arnold Mireille Louys wrote: [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > Dear all , > > I uploaded the minutes of the teleconference on the revision of the > ObsCore DM proposed recommendation. > Please look at the bottom of the RFC page : > http://www.ivoa.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/ObsCoreRFC > > Thanks , Mireille > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arnold H. Rots Chandra X-ray Science Center Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory tel: +1 617 496 7701 60 Garden Street, MS 67 fax: +1 617 495 7356 Cambridge, MA 02138 arots at head.cfa.harvard.edu USA http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~arots/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From patrick.dowler at nrc-cnrc.gc.ca Thu Jun 9 13:25:19 2011 From: patrick.dowler at nrc-cnrc.gc.ca (Patrick Dowler) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 13:25:19 -0700 Subject: [ObsCoreRFC]Minutes of the telco Monday June 6 In-Reply-To: <201106091956.p59Ju32S024292@xebec.cfa.harvard.edu> References: <201106091956.p59Ju32S024292@xebec.cfa.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <201106091325.19464.patrick.dowler@nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> The notion of "mandatory" in the ObsCore physical model (the table) is that the column must be there and thus the (ADQL) query will run successfully. Having said that, if an service provider simply adds the column (pol_states VARCHAR(32) and leaves all the values NULL, it will behave as you say below (unless of course the WHERE clause had "pol_states IS NULL" as that would potentially return rows :-) So, the information is not mandatory: the presence of the column is mandatory. Now, for a TAP service to behave as you suggest below for columns they do not have in the table or view -- that would be very onerous to implement. Hope that is clear, Pat On 2011-06-09 12:55:50 Arnold Rots wrote: > 1. I puzzled over the comment on whether polarization information > should be mandatory. The logic applied seems to lead to the assumption > that all datasets that do not provide a particular optional item will > return an error as soon as that item is in the query. > I would have assumed that the behavior SHOULD be: > - if a particular item in the SELECT clause is not available from a > service, that service SHALL return a NULL value. > - if a particular item in the WHERE clause is not available from a > service, that service SHALL return an empty list of results. > Under that assumption, there should not be any problem in making > polarization optional. -- Patrick Dowler Tel/T?l: (250) 363-0044 Canadian Astronomy Data Centre National Research Council Canada 5071 West Saanich Road Victoria, BC V9E 2M7 Centre canadien de donnees astronomiques Conseil national de recherches Canada 5071, chemin West Saanich Victoria (C.-B.) V9E 2M7 From arots at head.cfa.harvard.edu Thu Jun 9 14:50:06 2011 From: arots at head.cfa.harvard.edu (Arnold Rots) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 17:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ObsCoreRFC]Minutes of the telco Monday June 6 In-Reply-To: <201106091325.19464.patrick.dowler@nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> Message-ID: <201106092150.p59Lo6tt024315@xebec.cfa.harvard.edu> Well, that's not really clear to me. Are you saying that it is unwise to include optional columns in a query, because it may cause them to error out? Then why do we bother with optional items? It seems to me that their use is discouraged. By not specifying how servers should handle them we render them useless, don't we? Cheers, - Arnold Patrick Dowler wrote: [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > > The notion of "mandatory" in the ObsCore physical model (the table) is that > the column must be there and thus the (ADQL) query will run successfully. > > Having said that, if an service provider simply adds the column (pol_states > VARCHAR(32) and leaves all the values NULL, it will behave as you say below > (unless of course the WHERE clause had "pol_states IS NULL" as that would > potentially return rows :-) > > So, the information is not mandatory: the presence of the column is mandatory. > Now, for a TAP service to behave as you suggest below for columns they do not > have in the table or view -- that would be very onerous to implement. > > Hope that is clear, > > Pat > > On 2011-06-09 12:55:50 Arnold Rots wrote: > > 1. I puzzled over the comment on whether polarization information > > should be mandatory. The logic applied seems to lead to the assumption > > that all datasets that do not provide a particular optional item will > > return an error as soon as that item is in the query. > > I would have assumed that the behavior SHOULD be: > > - if a particular item in the SELECT clause is not available from a > > service, that service SHALL return a NULL value. > > - if a particular item in the WHERE clause is not available from a > > service, that service SHALL return an empty list of results. > > Under that assumption, there should not be any problem in making > > polarization optional. > > -- > > Patrick Dowler > Tel/T?l: (250) 363-0044 > Canadian Astronomy Data Centre > National Research Council Canada > 5071 West Saanich Road > Victoria, BC V9E 2M7 > > Centre canadien de donnees astronomiques > Conseil national de recherches Canada > 5071, chemin West Saanich > Victoria (C.-B.) V9E 2M7 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arnold H. Rots Chandra X-ray Science Center Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory tel: +1 617 496 7701 60 Garden Street, MS 67 fax: +1 617 495 7356 Cambridge, MA 02138 arots at head.cfa.harvard.edu USA http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~arots/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From arots at head.cfa.harvard.edu Thu Jun 9 14:57:15 2011 From: arots at head.cfa.harvard.edu (Arnold Rots) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 17:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ObsCoreRFC]Minutes of the telco Monday June 6 In-Reply-To: <20110607154717.vzvq3m2tc488ks0s@webmail.u-strasbg.fr> Message-ID: <201106092157.p59LvF7j024326@xebec.cfa.harvard.edu> Two more questions: 6. Are s_fov and s_region both mandatory? Wouldn't one of them suffice? (especially since s_fov can easily be turned into s_region) 7. At some point there was a spreadsheet with the contents of tables 6 and 7 (I think), but I can't find them. Are they still around? (they would be very helpful in mapping out a service) Cheers, - Arnold Mireille Louys wrote: [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > Dear all , > > I uploaded the minutes of the teleconference on the revision of the > ObsCore DM proposed recommendation. > Please look at the bottom of the RFC page : > http://www.ivoa.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/ObsCoreRFC > > Thanks , Mireille > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arnold H. Rots Chandra X-ray Science Center Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory tel: +1 617 496 7701 60 Garden Street, MS 67 fax: +1 617 495 7356 Cambridge, MA 02138 arots at head.cfa.harvard.edu USA http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~arots/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------