From dower at stsci.edu Wed Jan 4 13:23:04 2012 From: dower at stsci.edu (Theresa Dower) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 21:23:04 +0000 Subject: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. Message-ID: Is there anywhere in the IVOA standards docs that I've somehow missed for describing generic RESTful services? The ParamHTTP standard doesn't quite fit for a lot of real-world cases. Beyond expanding queryTypes for ParamHTTP to include UPDATE/DELETE/ETC, I also mean some kind of support for parameters that are XML or JSON blobs. This is already described in a hodgepodge of specialized interfaces for VOSI, TAP, VOSpace, etc, but what about non-standard DataServices? I know I'm out of the loop on some generic registry stuff and may have missed something. If not, I'm beginning to see the need for a general extension for it. --Theresa Dower -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjg at cacr.caltech.edu Wed Jan 4 13:25:54 2012 From: mjg at cacr.caltech.edu (Matthew Graham) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 13:25:54 -0800 Subject: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09327B3C-F99A-4CFC-BD53-C4ACBE8C7D07@cacr.caltech.edu> Hi Theresa, No, there is not. Certainly a general extension for properly RESTful services would be a good idea. Cheers, Matthew On Jan 4, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Theresa Dower wrote: > Is there anywhere in the IVOA standards docs that I've somehow missed for describing generic RESTful services? The ParamHTTP standard doesn?t quite fit for a lot of real-world cases. Beyond expanding queryTypes for ParamHTTP to include UPDATE/DELETE/ETC, I also mean some kind of support for parameters that are XML or JSON blobs. This is already described in a hodgepodge of specialized interfaces for VOSI, TAP, VOSpace, etc, but what about non-standard DataServices? I know I'm out of the loop on some generic registry stuff and may have missed something. If not, I?m beginning to see the need for a general extension for it. > > --Theresa Dower -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rplante at ncsa.uiuc.edu Wed Jan 4 13:29:00 2012 From: rplante at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Ray Plante) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 15:29:00 -0600 Subject: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Theresa Dower wrote: > Is there anywhere in the IVOA standards docs that I've somehow missed for > describing generic RESTful services? The ParamHTTP standard doesn?t quite > fit for a lot of real-world cases. Beyond expanding queryTypes for ParamHTTP > to include UPDATE/DELETE/ETC, ?I also mean some kind of ?support for > parameters that are XML or JSON blobs.? No, in general. ParamHTTP represents a special though very common subset. This was done to keep the description of the interface very simple and cover the 80%, including DAL service interfaces. > If not, I?m beginning to see > the need for a general extension for it. I agree. I'd love to see a strawman floated for it. cheers, Ray From al at roe.ac.uk Wed Jan 4 13:38:23 2012 From: al at roe.ac.uk (Andy Lawrence) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 21:38:23 +0000 Subject: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C0615D2-8701-4D3D-AF39-1041391A0F45@roe.ac.uk> Well I suppose straw does float, after all. Or maybe we could run the strawman up the flagpole. Oh dear. Time to shut up and watch TV I think. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Lawrence : Regius Professor of Astronomy, University of Edinburgh Institute for Astronomy, Royal Observatory, Blackford Hill, Edinburgh, EH9 3HJ Email al at roe.ac.uk / Phone +44-(0)131-668-8346 / Skype andyxlawrence Admin contact : Paula Wilkie 0131-668-8403 paw at roe.ac.uk ----------------------------------------------------------- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. On 4 Jan 2012, at 21:29, Ray Plante wrote: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Theresa Dower wrote: > Is there anywhere in the IVOA standards docs that I've somehow missed for > describing generic RESTful services? The ParamHTTP standard doesn?t quite > fit for a lot of real-world cases. Beyond expanding queryTypes for ParamHTTP > to include UPDATE/DELETE/ETC, I also mean some kind of support for > parameters that are XML or JSON blobs. No, in general. ParamHTTP represents a special though very common subset. This was done to keep the description of the interface very simple and cover the 80%, including DAL service interfaces. > If not, I?m beginning to see > the need for a general extension for it. I agree. I'd love to see a strawman floated for it. cheers, Ray -- Scanned by iCritical. From rplante at ncsa.uiuc.edu Wed Jan 4 13:42:54 2012 From: rplante at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Ray Plante) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 15:42:54 -0600 Subject: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. In-Reply-To: <5C0615D2-8701-4D3D-AF39-1041391A0F45@roe.ac.uk> References: <5C0615D2-8701-4D3D-AF39-1041391A0F45@roe.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Andy Lawrence wrote: > Well I suppose straw does float, after all. > > Or maybe we could run the strawman up the flagpole. We float strawmen. (First. We drown them later.) --Ray From dower at stsci.edu Wed Jan 4 15:42:18 2012 From: dower at stsci.edu (Theresa Dower) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 23:42:18 +0000 Subject: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. References: Message-ID: I ask because a colleague (Steve Handy) at STScI and I are looking for a way to catalogue our non-VO-standard services for internal use and wondering if the registry paradigm fits the services we already have and ones we're planning to build soon. He's suggested looking to WSDL 2.0 for answers on RESTful service descriptions if there's not already a VO way to do things. I'd like to start working on this once I've read through it and our use cases and the existent special-case VO interface descriptions, and welcome help, input, a hostile takeover, from anyone. Anybody? Bueller? -----Original Message----- From: Ray Plante [mailto:rplante at ncsa.uiuc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 4:29 PM To: Theresa Dower Cc: registry at ivoa.net Subject: Re: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. On Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Theresa Dower wrote: > Is there anywhere in the IVOA standards docs that I've somehow missed for > describing generic RESTful services? The ParamHTTP standard doesn?t quite > fit for a lot of real-world cases. Beyond expanding queryTypes for ParamHTTP > to include UPDATE/DELETE/ETC, ?I also mean some kind of ?support for > parameters that are XML or JSON blobs.? No, in general. ParamHTTP represents a special though very common subset. This was done to keep the description of the interface very simple and cover the 80%, including DAL service interfaces. > If not, I?m beginning to see > the need for a general extension for it. I agree. I'd love to see a strawman floated for it. cheers, Ray From dtody at nrao.edu Wed Jan 4 16:02:37 2012 From: dtody at nrao.edu (Douglas Tody) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 17:02:37 -0700 (MST) Subject: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd suggest that the first question to ask, for each such service, is whether a fully RESTful (file/resource oriented) or object oriented (object with methods) model is more appropriate for the specific service. In the latter case the DAL interfaces define an existing standard pattern which being OO is not tied so closely to HTTP, but which is nonetheless integrated with the existing VO RESTful standards such as for UWS and VOSI. Both are good models but they are quite different - OO is more appropriate for accessing things which are well defined objects (e.g. an image), the file/resource model is more appropriate for structured information. - Doug On Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Theresa Dower wrote: > > > I ask because a colleague (Steve Handy) at STScI and I are looking for a way to catalogue our non-VO-standard services for internal use and wondering if the registry paradigm fits the services we already have and ones we're planning to build soon. He's suggested looking to WSDL 2.0 for answers on RESTful service descriptions if there's not already a VO way to do things. I'd like to start working on this once I've read through it and our use cases and the existent special-case VO interface descriptions, and welcome help, input, a hostile takeover, from anyone. Anybody? Bueller? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ray Plante [mailto:rplante at ncsa.uiuc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 4:29 PM > To: Theresa Dower > Cc: registry at ivoa.net > Subject: Re: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. > > On Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Theresa Dower wrote: >> Is there anywhere in the IVOA standards docs that I've somehow missed for >> describing generic RESTful services? The ParamHTTP standard doesn?t quite >> fit for a lot of real-world cases. Beyond expanding queryTypes for ParamHTTP >> to include UPDATE/DELETE/ETC, ?I also mean some kind of ?support for >> parameters that are XML or JSON blobs. ?? > No, in general. ParamHTTP represents a special though very common > subset. This was done to keep the description of the interface very > simple and cover the 80%, including DAL service interfaces. > >> If not, I?m beginning to see >> the need for a general extension for it. > > I agree. I'd love to see a strawman floated for it. > > cheers, > Ray > From pierre.lesidaner at obspm.fr Wed Jan 4 23:47:52 2012 From: pierre.lesidaner at obspm.fr (Pierre Le Sidaner) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:47:52 +0100 Subject: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F0555A8.6020106@obspm.fr> Hi Theresa On evolution of UWS we have compare WSDL2 and WADL, and WADL seem to be more easy and adapted to restfull services here an example of a wadl description for UWS (the service work) This description allow us to make a generic client that give parameter to fill, send jobs and propose to get result back, talk to Regis Haigron if you need more information on it regis.haigron at obspm.fr As soon as we have first convergence in the Job description language, I hope the description of REST job will be more simple Regards Pierre Le 05/01/2012 00:42, Theresa Dower a ?crit : > > I ask because a colleague (Steve Handy) at STScI and I are looking for a way to catalogue our non-VO-standard services for internal use and wondering if the registry paradigm fits the services we already have and ones we're planning to build soon. He's suggested looking to WSDL 2.0 for answers on RESTful service descriptions if there's not already a VO way to do things. I'd like to start working on this once I've read through it and our use cases and the existent special-case VO interface descriptions, and welcome help, input, a hostile takeover, from anyone. Anybody? Bueller? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ray Plante [mailto:rplante at ncsa.uiuc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 4:29 PM > To: Theresa Dower > Cc: registry at ivoa.net > Subject: Re: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. > > On Wed, 4 Jan 2012, Theresa Dower wrote: >> Is there anywhere in the IVOA standards docs that I've somehow missed for >> describing generic RESTful services? The ParamHTTP standard doesn?t quite >> fit for a lot of real-world cases. Beyond expanding queryTypes for ParamHTTP >> to include UPDATE/DELETE/ETC, I also mean some kind of support for >> parameters that are XML or JSON blobs. > No, in general. ParamHTTP represents a special though very common > subset. This was done to keep the description of the interface very > simple and cover the 80%, including DAL service interfaces. > >> If not, I?m beginning to see >> the need for a general extension for it. > I agree. I'd love to see a strawman floated for it. > > cheers, > Ray -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre Le Sidaner Observatoire de Paris Division Informatique de l'Observatoire Observatoire Virtuel 01 40 51 20 89 61, avenue de l'Observatoire 75014 Paris mailto:pierre.lesidaner at obspm.fr http://vo-web.obspm.fr -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From paul.harrison at manchester.ac.uk Thu Jan 5 00:55:13 2012 From: paul.harrison at manchester.ac.uk (Paul Harrison) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 08:55:13 +0000 Subject: Question about registry support of general RESTful services. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63EC0F62-8F73-4A1F-9849-579F3E9EB240@manchester.ac.uk> On 2012-01 -04, at 21:23, Theresa Dower wrote: > Is there anywhere in the IVOA standards docs that I've somehow missed for describing generic RESTful services? The ParamHTTP standard doesn?t quite fit for a lot of real-world cases. Beyond expanding queryTypes for ParamHTTP to include UPDATE/DELETE/ETC, I also mean some kind of support for parameters that are XML or JSON blobs. This is already described in a hodgepodge of specialized interfaces for VOSI, TAP, VOSpace, etc, but what about non-standard DataServices? I know I'm out of the loop on some generic registry stuff and may have missed something. If not, I?m beginning to see the need for a general extension for it. > > --Theresa Dower We ( Carlo Maria Zw?lf, Franck Le Petit & myself) are working on a Parameter Description Language (PDL) http://www.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/InterOpOct2011GWS/interopPune.pdf that could act as a meta description of a generic service and its parameters - the intention being to allow interoperability between various existing service descriptions e.g. WADL, WSDL by providing a description that could possibly be transformed into one of these descriptions for implementation purposes - in the first instance we will be providing an implementation that works with UWS. UWS does provide some support for "parameters" that are XML or JSON blobs in that it does not prescribe the "Job definition language" (JDL) used to specify the input to the job - however, in general the level of granularity that is used to describe a parameter (i.e. is the JSON blob a single parameter, or are the properties specified within it parameters?) is crucial to achieving interoperability. The approach that we are trying to take with the parameter description language is to go for fine grained granularity so that each service will have a PDL and a transformation specification that will create the JDL. Services should be able to work out if they can sensibly use their output as input for another service by simply querying the PDL of the receiving service. Regards Paul. Dr. Paul Harrison JBCA, Manchester University http://www.manchester.ac.uk/jodrellbank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: